I’ve been to Germany dozens of times. In my opinion, the Germans tend to be more respectful of authority and less comfortable with moral ambiguity than we. Still, I have never been able to comprehend the atrocities committed under Hitler. Similarly, I’ve had a hard time with those Muslim fundamentalists who do evil, in the name of God.
Some of the comments I've received to my posts concerning the Frisch/Goldstein mess have actually given me some hints that further my understanding of such people. In no way am I comparing those who made comments on my posts to Nazis or Jihadists. But there is a quality in some of the comments that smells of an angry level of groupthink, combined with a sort of litmus test, able to determine good and evil with a certainty beyond question.
Quite a few of my readers argued that if I had received comments similar to the ones Goldstein received, I would feel threatened. Abolutely true. If I received comments like the ones posted by Blackfive, cherry picked and vacuum packed as they were by Blackfive, I’d feel threatened.
But the key isn't what I might feel – it’s what Goldstein did feel. And he said that he did not feel threatened “I don’t feel victimized… I don’t think she’s a threat. She’s more of an object lesson in having too many cats.”
Jamie McArdle wrote me that it was noteworthy that Jeff didn’t contact authorities, or anyone else; that his commenters did. I agree that it’s noteworthy; in fact I think it incredible. If I thought that my child was being threatened, I would call the cops in two minutes. But Goldstein didn’t. Again, in such a situation, I'd be furiously pissed off. Not Goldstein. A few days after most of the vile comments were made and after Frisch offered her “apology” and resigned from her job – Goldstein wrote “Because until now, I haven’t really been pissed…” In one of my posts I wrote in amazement that Goldstein had allowed this to go on for a few days. If I thought that a commenter was threatening my child, I would ban that IP address immediately. But I heard back that Jeff only banned people who made really horrible comments. Which was it: He didn't think that threatening his child was a really horrible comment? Or he didn't think his child was threatend?
This was a game to both Jeff and to Deb. That is why I described Blackfive's comments as cherry picked and vacuum packed. If you only read their comments, they seem threatening. In fact they are only disgusting and vile. Jeff acknowledges that it was just a game for him when he wrote:
"2. I allowed Debbie to continue commenting here because she was threatening to show her ass. Not that any of us wanted to see such a horrid, rippled thing, of course - but, well, we're intellectually curious. And adventurous!
3. She showed her ass. And it was every bit as ugly as we all knew it would be.
4. But no matter. I don't want apologies."
(Jeff can be pretty disgusting himself.)
In the comments section of his July 6 post, she writes that "you think that I am the scum of the earth and the feeling is more than mutual.', and then she compliments him for "just writing a post that disses me instead of just banning my bitchy ass." Goldstein responds by saying "When I'm done with you, Deb, you're going to be an internet verb. Enjoy."
At 12:28 AM on 07/07 she announced her disappointment in not being banned by that point, saying "u win, jeffy baw. good nite." He began his response at 12:34 by saying "I can smell your fear, Deb..."
At 10:09 PM 07/06 he writes: "Aw. I do believe Deb's got a crush on me! Don't despair, though honey - you're like the fifth "academic" lesbian I've turned."
These taunts and dares are hardly responses I would make to someone threatening sexually abuse of my child.
In fact, Deb explains why she is making such odious comments about two hours later:
Jeffy boy Goldstein allowed people to comment on my anatomy, etc. and make veiled threats of physical/sexual violence. He just sat by and watched and laughed... I decided to fight fire with fire and make comments about his "tyke" the same way his pathetic minions made comments about me."
I am not saying that this explanation is in any way a sufficient justification. I do think it's important to note that Goldstein does not ask her to stop, nor to say that he finds her comments threatening. Instead he points out how pathetic he thinks her to be,"how sad."
Throughout these posts and comments, his readers advised Goldstein of the various law enforcement agencies they had contacted because of her "threats" or her "assault." Jeff never asks them to refrain from making such contacts.
On July 7, a friend of Goldstein's, Froggy of Blackfive wrote a post repeating an argument of Jeff's: "Frisch ought to become her own unique internet verb for a deranged troll/cyber stalker." He went on to complain of the "repeatedly and quite disturbing (sic) levied DEATH THREATS against Jeff's 2 year old child. " He updated the post to say he had just talked with Jeff on the phone. After talking to Goldstein, he issued a second update giving out detailed information about her employer and whom to contact to register a complaint. After a lot of e-mails were received by her employer which complained of her making physical threats, some of them threatened to try to harm that employer if she was not fired, she resigned. Later, she said that she had planned to quit anyway.
Frisch's comments were despicable. So was Goldstein's behavior. He could easily have asked his friend Froggy or his audience to not contact her employer. He could have suggested that if they wanted to report her, they should be sure not to talk of threats. He knew that there were no threats. But instead, he let his friends speak of threats and of sexual abuse Any basic, decent citizen would ask people to refrain from bothering the FBI and various law enforcement agencies from wasting their time on "crimes" that had never been committed.
It's my sense that Goldstein is quite proud of his little game of exposing Frisch's "ass." For him to imply that he or his family were somehow victims is a blatant lie.
Hitler made a specialty of laying blame on the other, most heavily on the Jew. He knew that by making public accusations against a group, the mere fact of their being untrue never removed the taint that clung to the accused. It's a talent that Karl Rove, and I fear Jeff Goldstein, have learned well. Jihadists, also, enjoy demonizing their opponent, and blaming them for their own failures. It's this willingness to lie to achieve one's goals that I find so frightening.
She made vile comments. She did not threaten a child.
i got nothing to add, other than to say the greatest threat to the well-being of jg's kid is jg's disgusting internet behavior.
Should this guy really be a stay-at-home dad? Should Count Cockula really be a stay-at-home dad?
Why in the world does Mrs. Cockula allow this guy to stay home all day and babysit and play Count Cockula? How in the world can this be good for a two year old, to hang all day with a guy playing a naughty, live action dungeons and dragons game with his homeboyz on da web?
'Splain it to me peeps, cuz i don't get it.
Posted by: word warrior | July 17, 2006 at 10:37 PM
Bustard;
" But there is a quality in some of the comments that smells of an angry level of groupthink, combined with a sort of litmus test, able to determine good and evil with a certainty beyond question."
Yes, ace, there IS a "groupthink" going on here. It's called a community sanctioning someone who has transgessed against the bounds of common decency.
And again,you are correct in that there is an ability to determine good and evil beyond question.
What Frisch the Failure did was WRONG, it was BAD.
Even you yourself rebuke her actions.
So what's your problem with the treatment she's getting?
You really, really, have to pump the political bullshit out of your head.
This ain't about politics at all. It stopped being about politics when she opened fire on JG's wife and kid. Which she is STILL doing.
That you cannot and will not stop dragging politics into it is an indicator of how fucked-up a person YOU are.
What she did was beyond the pale. There's no equivocation or "gray area". Stop making excuses.
Have you noticed that she now posts as "Word Warrior"?
Even Deborah Frisch is trying to distance herself from Deborah Frisch...and who wouldn't?
A menopausal age failure as an academic, a lesbian, a daughter and a woman, who has not only made a wreck of her life, but has poured gasoline on the wreckage and set it afire for the world to see, by attacking the family that Professor Goldstein has, and that she will NEVER have.
Her comments to Goldstein were all about envy, not politics.
If you can't see that, then you're blind.
Posted by: Bilgeman | July 18, 2006 at 10:31 AM
I make no excuses for Frisch's actions. Her comments were bad. Where you and I disagree, and why politics are involved, is that age old "the ends justify the means" issue. You argue that because what she did was "bad" it is Ok for Goldstein, Blackfive, and a host of others, to lie about what she did, so that something "Bad" would happen to her; ie "the treatment that she is getting."
I don't like Goldstein lying and playing the victim card, when he was actually part of the card game.
Posted by: bbbustard | July 18, 2006 at 11:25 AM
Bustard;
"Where you and I disagree, and why politics are involved, is that age old "the ends justify the means" issue."
What ends are YOU pursuing in this matter? Can you answer me that?
The ends I'm after is for this woman to be monitored by the authorites so that she commits ni violence against JG's, or anyone else's, spouse and/or children.
That, and that she never, ever be given a teaching position ever again.
Where you and I agree is that waht she posted were not direct threats.
Where you go wandering off into moral equivalency Land is that you apparently hold it to be unreasonable that others viewed her posts as threats.
Those you identified:
"Goldstein, Blackfive, and a host of others, to lie about what she did,"
does not mean that they lied, there IS room for an honest difference of opinion...that's why we have 12 citizens on juries, y'know.
You are attacking their reaction, and thereby defending her action,(although you're not honest enough to admit it), simply because you perhaps agree with HER politics, and you generally disagree with THEIRS.
So what does that make you?
Again, what ends are YOU after?
And is tolerating the shit that issues from Failure-Frisch's keyboard part of the means that YOU are willing to accept to attain that end?
The bottom line is what you yourself have claimed all along:
"I make no excuses for Frisch's actions. Her comments were bad. "
Then start acting like it.
If you can't or won't do it out of a sense of community, then do so from self-interest... because the Frisch-Failure is certainly no asset in the campaign to build whatever Utopia you are seeking.
She's a dead albatross that you are willingly hanging around your neck, (if you know your Coleridge).
Cut it loose, let it sink...or let it drag you into the depth also.
Didn't you know? Failures LOVE the company.
Regards;
Posted by: Bilgeman | July 18, 2006 at 02:40 PM
Thanks, Bilgeman, for your comment. I think we might actually be starting to understand each other better.
The end that I am pursuing in this matter is probably complicated. I’ve had previous experience with Goldstein in which he really engaged in reprehensible behavior. I don’t like the guy. I disagree with his politics, but I disagree with the politics of a lot of people I’m close to. It’s not his political positions that make Goldstein repellant to me, it’s his dishonest, manipulative behavior that I dislike. He acts like his family has been horribly threatened by this gay woman whom he taunts by saying “Don’t despair, though honey – you’re like the fifth academic “lesbian” I’ve turned.” Please. Who is stalking who here?
I’m sure you’re right that there were those who wrote that the child was threatened who honestly believed it. I might be overly suspicious. I tried to list only the ones who I thought were lying. Blackfive did his cherry-picked,context-deprived, list of her quotes, and posted the details about her employer, “just” after speaking with Goldstein. I really doubt the sincerity of his belief in the “threat.” One of things that I find most reprehensible in this whole thing is that while Goldstein admits that there was no real threat, and was obviously playing alongside her in their sick little game – he did nothing to stop his readers from contacting the FBI and other law enforcement agencies. I think that those agencies have enough to do without being involved in Goldstein’s vile, manipulative little plots.
I understand what you’re saying about not wanting to be associated with Frisch. I do wonder why you want to let a guy like Goldstein help define who you are. I t seems that you think one can only be motivated by self-interest, or a desire to protect one’s own gated “community.” I don’t see it that way. The Utopia that I seek is a U.S. that is closer to meeting the goals set forth is the Constitution and in the Declaration of Independence – impossible goals perhaps, but one’s worth striving for, I thought.
Goldstein’s lies, his deceptions, and his character assassinations don’t get us any closer to them.
BRgds
Posted by: bbbustard | July 18, 2006 at 05:50 PM
Bustard;
"I’ve had previous experience with Goldstein in which he really engaged in reprehensible behavior. I don’t like the guy."
Before I'd heard of Frisch and her comments, I'd only heard of his blog, although I'd never visited there, so I didn't know the guy from Joe the Shmo.
"I disagree with his politics, but I disagree with the politics of a lot of people I’m close to."
Whatever JG's politics may be, his wife and his son have very little, if nothing at all, to do with them, therefore, they are off limits.
What would you think of me if I e-mailed and open letter to Frisch's parents asking their commentary on Faiure's recent actions?
Pretty shitty thing to do, eh?
Since the Failure's parents had nothing to do with the posts in question.
"It’s not his political positions that make Goldstein repellant to me, it’s his dishonest, manipulative behavior that I dislike."
Well, you have the advantage of me in being more expsed to Protein Wisdom, but the only conduct I saw JG engage in was to give Frisch enough rope with which to hang herself.
As the man says, "tough tittie". Whatever host of hobgoblins may inhabit and bedevil her mind, she IS free, white and well over 21 years of age, and with a PhD to boot.
It ain't like she's got any "weasel room" with a CV like that.
"I tried to list only the ones who I thought were lying. Blackfive did his cherry-picked,context-deprived, list of her quotes"
Have you noticed that the print media articles have "disappeared" the pedophillic comments that Frisch made?
Yup...right down the "memory hole".
That's not a "cherry-pick", that's an omission about a material fact.
Frisch denied she made 'em, but JG posted the screenshot and her IP address...flat caught her in a lie, not a "context-deprivation", and we all saw it.
Your anger starts to seem mighty selective.
"– he did nothing to stop his readers from contacting the FBI and other law enforcement agencies."
Be real.
Goldstein has no more control over what his readers will or will not do than do you.
F'chrissakes man, do you REALLY think that there is a "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy", and that Jeff Goldstein is one of the little button-pushers in it?
Now, when people, myself included, see someone post the kind of foul trash about a child that Frisch did, they have a very reasonable tendency to reach for either a handgun, a telephone, a rope, or all three at once.
"I think that those agencies have enough to do without being involved in Goldstein’s vile, manipulative little plots."
That's a very dangerous attitude you have, it could lead to such unpleasant consequences as "obstruction of justice", "accessory after the fact", and "conspiracy to commit...".
Just a bit of advice...let the guy who wears the badge determine whether he's too busy or not.
"I do wonder why you want to let a guy like Goldstein help define who you are."
Ahhh, but I'm not defending JG, I'm attacking the Loser who attacked his family.
And I'm not doing it because of his politics, or frankly even because of the Loser's, but because I don't cotton to people who behave as she did.
File this under that part about:
"...establish justice, insure domestic tranquiity, provide for the common defense..."
Regards;
Posted by: Bilgeman | July 18, 2006 at 11:34 PM
Thanks again for your reasonableness
1. Ratting on her to her parents would be a pretty shitty thing to, and I don't think ratting on her to her employer is cool either.
2. I actually missed coverage in print journalism - if they "disappeared" her vile comments, it makes the whole thing seem really meaningless.
3. I agree that JG has no control over what the commenters do, but I think if he had asked them to chill, and to say that he didn't feel threatened, there wouldn't have been so many silly reports to law enforcement -
BRgds,
bbbustard
Posted by: bbbustard | July 20, 2006 at 12:46 PM
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